Are there any genuine Egyptian men?

[MensEtManus]

TT summed it all up - great post!

[Beatle]

Originally Posted by Tinytraveler

If you are a Christian considering marrying a Muslim man things you need to think about:

I don't know of one marriage between a Muslim and Christian that has worked out well. Even when the wife converted eventually. I have seen women convert because they were convinced but then when they found out that their rebel Muslim husbands were falling far short of their requirements they started to pressure them to change for the better according to the religion. In the end the marriages finished in divorce.

I know of one marriage - my parents! They were happily married for 26 years. And my mother didn't convert.

Without wanting to get into a huge religious debate, as you have identified it's often the cultural interpretation of Islam that causes huge problems rather than the actual religion itself.

[DeadGuy]

Originally Posted by Tinytraveler

If you are a Christian considering marrying a Muslim man things you need to think about:

Know the rights you are given in Islam but realize these rights are only good if he is willing to uphold them and live by them. So if he is a alcohol drinking, sex before marriage kind of Muslim don't expect him to uphold your rights because he only knows his religion when it is convenient to him. Typically these guys when they find their religion after a child is born do not have enough knowledge of the religion and end up being a bit extreme in their understanding. They are usually too lazy to find out the truth from an educated scholar and just except what they are told from the streets which is usually cultural and not Islam.
An example of your rights: Your money is your money and he has no rights to it and you don't have to spend one penny of it for the house (rent), food, clothes, utilities and all the needs of children. He has to pay for all of this, but you have to be willing to live with in his means. If you want more then he can afford he can tell you to buy your own Gucci hand bag. In Islam no where in the Quran is the wife required to cook & cleaner. Her job is only to raise good Muslim children. It is our nature to want to take care of things and not live in a mess so most women do it anyway. A Muslim huband can be required to provide a wife with a maid if his income affords it and the wife needs help.

Do you have to ask for his permission to leave the house? Is he going to allow you to have unlimited access to his money? Does he have to spend on the care of his family (mother/father, putting a brother through college)? Would he be willing to put property in your name only so if he dies you are not going to have to pay his relatives their inheritance to be able to stay in your home, if you live in Egypt. Is your mother in law going to come stay with you for extended periods of time?
Will he allow you to work after marriage? Is he going to limit what kind of job you can get?
Would he be interested in additional wives? (You can put in your marriage contract that he gives up his rights to additional wives.)
Where will you live?
If a man wants to marry you without you meeting his family there is something really really wrong. Marriages are not to be hidden but announced very openly. When the family finds out you got married in secret you will never be seen in a good light nor your family.

How many children? Birth control: which are exceptable? If you guys are NOT blessed with kids in the first few years of marriage does that mean divorce? If you have a girl child does he or his family believe in clitoridectomy? Just because he doesn't want it done doesn't mean if you leave you daughter with grandma for the afternoon she will not just have it done to your daughter. This is not a Muslim thing but a thing that is seen as allowable in Islam for the cultures that practice it. Most of the Muslim world does not practice it but in Egypt and other parts of Africa it is practiced.
What is your dowry going to be? You should expect one! It can be as small as memorizing verses of the Quran (like all of the ones about women's rights) and a ring, the other end of he spectrum is a whole apartment, filled with furniture, some gold, no additional wives, airline tickets every year to visit family for you and your future kids, the right to name your kids with out his approval, it is up to you two to agree on.

Realize that if you take an Egyptian back to GB or USA you will be teaching him everything on how to survive in that culture. Many Egyptians think the streets are paved with gold in the west and that money is so easy to come by. What they don't understand is that they will usually be forced to take jobs they will see as beneath them. Unless they are absolutely fluent in English and got a degree from a western accredited University their degree is worthless. I know of way too many foreigners that were Dr's in their country but are managers of Pizza Hut or a Taxi driver in the states after many years.

Marriages of diffrent culture is hard enough but marriages of different cultures and religion is far worse. I don't know of one marriage between a Muslim and Christian that has worked out well. Even when the wife converted eventually. I have seen women convert because they were convinced but then when they found out that their rebel Muslim husbands were falling far short of their requirements they started to pressure them to change for the better according to the religion. In the end the marriages finished in divorce.

Hi there Mr/Ms,


"So if he is a alcohol drinking, sex before marriage kind of Muslim don't expect him to uphold your rights because he only knows his religion when it is convenient to him. Typically these guys when they find their religion after a child is born do not have enough knowledge of the religion and end up being a bit extreme in their understanding. They are usually too lazy to find out the truth from an educated scholar and just except what they are told from the streets which is usually cultural and not Islam."

The kind of people you've mentioned (Alcohol drinking, sex before marriage, etc., well, the kind of those people who are not doing this on purpose anyway!) would be the only kind that would be "ok" with the wife sticking with her original beliefs, other kind of people who strictly follow Islam?? They do not allow the wives to be keeping their beliefs, and as you explained why few things that happens, again, this happens cause of culture habits that are ALLOWED by religion!

The rest of the "rights" that you've mentioned, 95% of the EGYPTIAN wives don't even get close to be having those rights, so I don't really know how could a non Egyptian one would be having those "rights"!

"Birth control"! I do not know any Muslim around me believing in that, even Muslim men who were medically proven not able to have kids, they just keep trying (With OTHER "wives" of course) and they just blame the wives each and every time they try and fail!


As for those who did convert and then realized that it wasn't the right thing to do, the only thing would be protecting them is their foreign passports, cause Islam do not tolerate "Mortadd" (Mortadd is the word used for describing Muslims who chose to convert to another religion) And sometimes foreign passports don't provide enough protection and they run back home just to survive!!

I do not wanna go in religious details, but trust me, not everything you've mentioned is completely true, and I bet that not everything you think you know and haven't mentioned is true either, it is a very complicated religion and there's many "IF's" in it, and when the word "if" followed by something that's left for the person to decide??? You'll get so many reactions which made by every person according to their own perspectives, and each and everyone of them will convince you that this is the "True Islam", if you want a proof of what I am saying, try to watch any 2 different Muslim channels talking about the same topic, but of course 2 different people giving their opinions!

Good luck!

P.S. I won't even try to answer/correct any religious things that would be mentioned in the future, simply cause talking about that topic is gonna be a complete waste of time, each one will just be sticking to what's in their minds, not to mention that I might end up getting arrested for talking about that, so I'll just save myself the hassle, I suppose we're all adults and can decide if what's mentioned is a reality or a fantasy!

[Tinytraveler]

Originally Posted by DeadGuy

Hi there Mr/Ms,

The kind of people you've mentioned (Alcohol drinking, sex before marriage, etc., well, the kind of those people who are not doing this on purpose anyway!) would be the only kind that would be "ok" with the wife sticking with her original beliefs,

other kind of people who strictly follow Islam?? They do not allow the wives to be keeping their beliefs,

The rest of the "rights" that you've mentioned, 95% of the EGYPTIAN wives don't even get close to be having those rights, so I don't really know how could a non Egyptian one would be having those "rights"!

"Birth control"! I do not know any Muslim around me believing in that,

even Muslim men who were medically proven not able to have kids, they just keep trying (With OTHER "wives" of course) and they just blame the wives each and every time they try and fail!

it is a very complicated religion and there's many "IF's" in it, and when the word "if" followed by something that's left for the person to decide??? You'll get so many reactions which made by every person according to their own perspectives, and each and everyone of them will convince you that this is the "True Islam", if you want a proof of what I am saying, try to watch any 2 different Muslim channels talking about the same topic, but of course 2 different people giving their opinions!

The guy that drinks and has sex before marriage and is a 20something waiter most likely will not stay that way. I have seen it too many times that people change. In their 20's most live a party hardy, worry about things later lifestyle. Once they are hit with the responsiblity of another life they ponder what is important. Having a baby is life altering for most people and it is something that gets people to think twice about their life. This is why some change at that point. Now if the guy is in his 40's I would be less likely to believe he would change his ways so drastically.

In the Quran it says no one can force you to change your religion. Now are there people who try to push their beliefs on others of course but wether or not they are stict believers I will leave for others to decide.

I mentioned one right which was about money and that was it the rest of the list was talking points for the female to discuss with the cute Egyptian before they get married. So she can make an informed decision what she is getting into.

I was curious about the birth control thing and ask many because I figured it was not allowed since so many Arabs have children right away. However I was told it was a cultural thing to have a child right away. There might be a larger gap between child 1 and 2 and birth control is used at that time. However it doesn't matter what your or my opinion is on this subject.....That is something between the couple and needs to be discussed.

There are also muslim men that will stay married to the same person for many many years with out being blessed with a child. Just as there is one extreme there is the other. I have seen several Muslim couples in the states that were not blessed with children for many many years that stayed together. One couple went 12 years before having their first. We joked they prayed and asked for prayers so much they were blessed with 6 kids in the end.

Yes Islam is a very complicated religion. There are 2 major sects Sunni and Shia then there are a dizzying number of schools of thought in each one....but even then it goes down to the scholar they go to for infomation. This is why I tried not to give opinion on most talking points I proposed , but posted everything as a question for them to discuss.

One thing I forgot to put out there was to talk about pets if you have them. Some Muslims are ok with dog and cats...other not. Some are ok with them only if they stay outside.

Here is a story I was told by a Muslim. Don't know where it came from though but I love it.
A man runs to the holy prophet and says " Prophet Mohammed my wife is pregnant please tell me how to raise good Muslim children?" The prophet told the man to go home as he could not help him. The man begged "Please tell me why? Should I have come to you before she was pregnant?" The prophet replied to him "You should have thought about your children when you were choosing your bride."

I love this because I saw too many in the west put more time and effort into choosing their career then their spouce. So for the young woman that ventures into the marriage areana I wish you the best of luck and hope you do your homework so that you are not surprised with anything after marriage.

[MaidenScotland]

A good post

The guy that drinks and has sex before marriage and is a 20something waiter most likely will not stay that way... this is the major problem here they marry western girls and then expect the girl to change the minute they are married, not just Muslims Christian men are the same.. they suddenly want good Egyptian wives.
The Arab/Egyptian living in the west is not subjected to his mothers neighbours aunties cat asking why his wife has not had children and therefore doesn't have that pressure on them as a couple to have babies and in the west it is acceptable not to have children if that is your wish. Contraceptives are sold quite openly here in the supermarket and chemist.
Money.. the average Egyptian waiter is lying about what he she is getting into, it is quite common here for them to tell woman that they cannot buy property in their own name, cannot
buy the car in her name and so on and so on... they also tell them that Orfi is legal... which it certainly isn't and she finds out too late after she has bought the house in his name.


Maiden

[DeadGuy]

Originally Posted by Tinytraveler

The guy that drinks and has sex before marriage and is a 20something waiter most likely will not stay that way. I have seen it too many times that people change. In their 20's most live a party hardy, worry about things later lifestyle. Once they are hit with the responsiblity of another life they ponder what is important. Having a baby is life altering for most people and it is something that gets people to think twice about their life. This is why some change at that point. Now if the guy is in his 40's I would be less likely to believe he would change his ways so drastically.

In the Quran it says no one can force you to change your religion. Now are there people who try to push their beliefs on others of course but wether or not they are stict believers I will leave for others to decide.

I mentioned one right which was about money and that was it the rest of the list was talking points for the female to discuss with the cute Egyptian before they get married. So she can make an informed decision what she is getting into.

I was curious about the birth control thing and ask many because I figured it was not allowed since so many Arabs have children right away. However I was told it was a cultural thing to have a child right away. There might be a larger gap between child 1 and 2 and birth control is used at that time. However it doesn't matter what your or my opinion is on this subject.....That is something between the couple and needs to be discussed.

There are also muslim men that will stay married to the same person for many many years with out being blessed with a child. Just as there is one extreme there is the other. I have seen several Muslim couples in the states that were not blessed with children for many many years that stayed together. One couple went 12 years before having their first. We joked they prayed and asked for prayers so much they were blessed with 6 kids in the end.

Yes Islam is a very complicated religion. There are 2 major sects Sunni and Shia then there are a dizzying number of schools of thought in each one....but even then it goes down to the scholar they go to for infomation. This is why I tried not to give opinion on most talking points I proposed , but posted everything as a question for them to discuss.

One thing I forgot to put out there was to talk about pets if you have them. Some Muslims are ok with dog and cats...other not. Some are ok with them only if they stay outside.

Here is a story I was told by a Muslim. Don't know where it came from though but I love it.
A man runs to the holy prophet and says " Prophet Mohammed my wife is pregnant please tell me how to raise good Muslim children?" The prophet told the man to go home as he could not help him. The man begged "Please tell me why? Should I have come to you before she was pregnant?" The prophet replied to him "You should have thought about your children when you were choosing your bride."

I love this because I saw too many in the west put more time and effort into choosing their career then their spouce. So for the young woman that ventures into the marriage areana I wish you the best of luck and hope you do your homework so that you are not surprised with anything after marriage.

Hi there,

People change yes, it is true specially when being close to have a child, but I don't think that telling someone that they should change their beliefs is the right thing to do, I mean if the husband/wife thinks that it's not right to drink or whatever then it's his/her choice, but as long as their partners are happy with how they already are??? Then why changing them or even trying to????!!!!!!!!

As for the part where you said that Qura'an says this or that?? I won't comment it, Bible says many things just as Qura'an does, but who's really following any???

As for the birth control thing, people do use it, but not to limit the number of kids, but to limit the females' body failures, there was a time in here when too many ladies got really sick (died in many occasions too) cause their body couldn't take one pregnancy after another, so they just do it to save the wife, not to limit the number of children, and in some families when the wife just suggests that she had enough of having kids, that leads to the "I got the right to have more wives, so do it or get yourself in a competition!" attitude by the husband! In the mean while, well educated families, or at least people who are smart enough to realize how crappy the financial/economical status are in here at the moment tend to lower the number of kids in their families, but that just happens cause they wanna keep the "one big happy family" picture and they just wanna be able to afford living, but in many of those cases, they would have more kids if they had more money!

Yes there are men who would stick to the wife in spite of not having kids, but that's not the majority, and all I been talking about was how things do go with the majority, of course there are exceptions, but they're not happening that often.

The differences aren't between "Sunna" and "Shea'a" only, Sunni Muslims do disagree with each other, so do Shea'a Muslims, and by the word "differences" I mean dramatically different, not just things like which foot you should use while stepping into the toilet or anything like that, but for ESSENTIAL matters!


And the "stories" you're told by Muslims, the one you've mentioned will be considered a "Hadith" since the Prophet was mentioned to be talking in it, but let me tell you what I think, if you wanna know about Islam??? Just watch people practicing it, stories told for non Muslims are more of advertising actually, so if you wanna know what Islam/Christianity or whatever religion is?? Just watch people practicing and living by its rules!


Good luck!

[Beatle]

Originally Posted by Tinytraveler

The guy that drinks and has sex before marriage and is a 20something waiter most likely will not stay that way. I have seen it too many times that people change. In their 20's most live a party hardy, worry about things later lifestyle. Once they are hit with the responsiblity of another life they ponder what is important. Having a baby is life altering for most people and it is something that gets people to think twice about their life. This is why some change at that point. Now if the guy is in his 40's I would be less likely to believe he would change his ways so drastically.

In the Quran it says no one can force you to change your religion. Now are there people who try to push their beliefs on others of course but wether or not they are stict believers I will leave for others to decide.

I mentioned one right which was about money and that was it the rest of the list was talking points for the female to discuss with the cute Egyptian before they get married. So she can make an informed decision what she is getting into.

I was curious about the birth control thing and ask many because I figured it was not allowed since so many Arabs have children right away. However I was told it was a cultural thing to have a child right away. There might be a larger gap between child 1 and 2 and birth control is used at that time. However it doesn't matter what your or my opinion is on this subject.....That is something between the couple and needs to be discussed.

There are also muslim men that will stay married to the same person for many many years with out being blessed with a child. Just as there is one extreme there is the other. I have seen several Muslim couples in the states that were not blessed with children for many many years that stayed together. One couple went 12 years before having their first. We joked they prayed and asked for prayers so much they were blessed with 6 kids in the end.

Yes Islam is a very complicated religion. There are 2 major sects Sunni and Shia then there are a dizzying number of schools of thought in each one....but even then it goes down to the scholar they go to for infomation. This is why I tried not to give opinion on most talking points I proposed , but posted everything as a question for them to discuss.

One thing I forgot to put out there was to talk about pets if you have them. Some Muslims are ok with dog and cats...other not. Some are ok with them only if they stay outside.

Here is a story I was told by a Muslim. Don't know where it came from though but I love it.
A man runs to the holy prophet and says " Prophet Mohammed my wife is pregnant please tell me how to raise good Muslim children?" The prophet told the man to go home as he could not help him. The man begged "Please tell me why? Should I have come to you before she was pregnant?" The prophet replied to him "You should have thought about your children when you were choosing your bride."

I love this because I saw too many in the west put more time and effort into choosing their career then their spouce. So for the young woman that ventures into the marriage areana I wish you the best of luck and hope you do your homework so that you are not surprised with anything after marriage.

I thought this was a really interesting post about the issues that can arise and the potential points of conflict. I liked the afterthought about animals - you are so right.

Other issues I have come across that have been problematic (you may have mentioned these) - the religion of the children and circumcision of male children.

Another issue (although less of a talking point when you meet someone!) is about inheritance. My father had some assets in the UAE when he died as he worked out there and some in the UK. My mother was not entitled to inherit any of his assets in the UAE as she is a Christian. My brother was entitled to two-thirds and my sister and I were entitled to a sixth each. Luckily we are all close to my poor mother. We had to go to court to claim the inheritance and she did get rather upset when she was asked on several occasions where my father's other wives and children were. The judge kept saying to her that he understood that she was the English wife but where were the other wives.....

[Sam]

Some very interesting and insightful posts.
A couple of points I would like to add:

Birth Control
I have often joked, and many agreed with me, that Egyptian women are classed into three categories, unmarried, pregnant or mothers (with the exception of infertile). Although it was just a friendly joke, it rang true. But, from my experiences, the women ask for the kids just as often if not more so than the women having motherhood forced upon them. And (again in my experience, not necessarily throughout Egypt or in the poorer classes) the couple will have as many kids as they can viably have and they will seek contraception - all Egyptian women I know tend to choose the loop or coil, something like 10 pounds in Cairo to get it fitted and ten years of protection & instantly fertile on removal. Anyway, my point is, most Egyptian girls do not even contemplate their future or possible careers as they grow up, many long only to be a housewife and to be rich in order to produce more kids.

Animals
Most Egyptians I know, regardless of religion, are genuinely terrified of animals. My ex used to tell me he wasn't scared, just disgusted by them as they're considered "dirty" (he was never particularly well informed on what was religious or cultural and seemed to just go with what suited him best and blamed it on religion). But when he jumps a mile on being surprised by a cat and runs a jumps and "protects himself" on the bed the time I brought home a kitten or can't even be in the same room as a dog, that's a phobia. The last time we were in Alex, we were leaving our apartment one day to find three teenage girls waiting for the lift... bear in mind the apartment we were in was at least 10-15 feet from where they were and our dog was on a lead (not an extendable one) and he didn't do anything, didn't bark or do anything, as we left they saw the dog and started screaming and shouting to take the monster away, it was like they were being attacked, one of them even started crying!!!! I find when we're out with the dog mostly Egyptians are intimidated. Many seem to try to act cool, but you can really tell they are not, and some will approach him to pat him, but go for his bum and not like it if his head gets close! From a religious point of view, my friend's husband, who is fine with animals had the opinion that they were fine in the house as long as there was one room in which they never entered where he could pray, and the animal should never touch him with his nose or lick him as this would make him "unpure" and he would have to wash (like after sex).

Islam is a very complicated religion, that I can agree on. My opinions on the religion, however, are best left unsaid. I have said in the past, I enjoy a good debate when the other debaters are also open to hear another point of view or opinion, but in such public forums I think it's best to just stick to the facts we see around us and let other people formulate their own opinions.

[josmiler05]

Excellent thread, Ive just finished reading the whole thread and my head is spinning!! Its so confusing, so many If's and but's deffinately not something to rush into!! I love reading and learning as much as I can, I also think it is important to have some sort of understanding when visiting new countries of their religion and customs.
Excellent guys.

[0Ahmed0]

hello, just to let you know i knew about expactforum from about half an hour (i saw a link for it in a site showing helps to Haiti people) and when i entered it i find egyptian flag so i clicked on it to see what is going on here and then i saw that post title " Are there any genuine Egyptian men?" intersting so i entered to see what you are saying here.

I saw badguy's comments and so i registered to reply on him
first of all badguy's comments most of it are wrong and he is trying to show that muslims and islam are/is bad and he is showing right facts in a way to let you all think that muslims and islams arenot good like that part related to "jihad" who said that changing someone from his relgion to islam is jihad or that part related to number of kids and wives totally wrong!!!!

I agree with most of what "MaidenScotland" and "tinytraverls" said and my opinion is not to hear "BadGuy"'s advices and i am sure 100% he isnot muslim and he is here to say certain words for certain purposes.....
In my opinion about what you are talking about is that the problem here is that even if you find genuine egyptian you must see how the difference in cultures and relgion will affect you (as TINYTRAVELER said in his long post) in the future because there are many differences you will see not only because he is muslim but also because he is egyptian and i think it is a veeeery stupid move to marry an egyptian waiter or similar job who you meet in a holiday because 99% they are trying to get benefits from you because a waiter is a not a well educated person here in Egypt

and just things which i think you should know
alot of egyptians guys pay for everything when their girls are with them so it isnot something unique if he is paying everything for, i amnot saying he is bad but i am only saying things which you may not know.
About drinking and having sex, it isnot something accepted on our society and people go far away from someone who is doing that because he isnot a good person... for example no parents here accept to let their daughter marries to someone who drinks only (99.5% of parents do that here) so imagine how that is totally wrong in egypt
and person who is drinking or having sex or not fast in ramadan or pray isnot considered a muslim except in his personal id, and that don't mean he may stop doing these things....
last thing about the education of people in egypt, everyone in egypt goes to college because it is free, so seeing a waiter who finished his college don't mean he is well educated....

sorry for my bad english