Are there any genuine Egyptian men?

[DeadGuy]

Originally Posted by AMT123

Thanks to you all for your contributions. I am not one to accept my own feelings very readily - bit of a hard case really - so I let the stories I read rule my head, and my head rule my heart! On a personal level I really do think that he is a genuine chap, and the gossip it caused with his colleagues when they found out about us because he had never been known to socialise with a westerner before sorta backed up my feel that he hasn't made a habit of hitting on guests! We pretty much lived together for nearly a fortnight when visited and at no point did anything he did or said make me doubt him. That said, I have talked about the reputation of Eyptians to him before and I will again, I know he will be hurt but like you say DeadGuy, it's only fair to let him know that I am conscious of what goes on.

Hope you are the person you said you are

Many people are tough smart ones most of the time, but "love" does miracles as people say

And trust me, it wouldn't hurt him that much if he's a genuine guy, but on the contrary, he'd be happy that you're being honest and coming clean with him.

Good luck

[Sam]

Originally Posted by DeadGuy

Hi there,

Egyptian "laws" do tolerate angry husbands killing their cheating (And sometimes they tolerate the suspected cheating ones, not just ones who got actually caught) But as an Egyptian it doesn't strike me that much, I've seen more than just that :S


As for your ex husband, sorry for saying this, but you describing him as a "genuine" guy did strike me, after the few things that you've mentioned about him I can recognize/categorize him as one of the people who are doing "this" kind of "Jihad" (Making a non Muslim become a Muslim, and reproducing to get more Muslims etc.).

I understand that he is the father of your child after all, not to mention that he is your ex husband, and I am sorry for saying what I said, but I just can't take it when such actions are described by words like "genuine" :S

Good luck, and sorry again if I was rude

Hey Deadguy,

You are right.

By genuine, I mean that he did love me and he didn't want me for monetary or visa purposes. But, he didn't take me with the intention of changing me, this came later. When I met him, he drank alcohol, didn't even fast during Ramadan, he sold himself has being very open minded and even until now he doesn't pray - unless his Dad is sick or something. It was after I became pregnant things changed, but it became a religious fear of how he would teach the child, which they got imprinted onto me.

We both didn't know what we were letting ourselves in for. We both tried to change each other. He had accepted me for who I was, but after marriage/pregnant (they kind of happened simultaneously) it was the old story of "I don't mind you showing your legs/arms/body - it's what other people would think of me ALLOWING YOU to show..." you start to change out of respect, one thing becomes another thing...

Yes, he tried to change me and yes he tried to convert me, and hence why we lasted not more than two years. But, yes he was genuine, it was when fatherhood struck him that his "bad behaviour" and reality struck him, as equally as it struck me.

And don't keep apologising, it really takes MUCH MORE than that to offend me, your opinions and advice have been valuable and 99% of the time accurate

Sam

[MaidenScotland]

It's the changing bit that bothers me.
I had a maid who fell in love with guy here in Cairo, she is Fillipina and Christian and asked me for help in marrying him which I was happy to do.
It was when she started telling me that she would have to cover up when married, change her religion, not work, that I told her under no circumstances would I help her.. anyway she is in America having a ball.
I also have a friend who has been married for 35 years to a great guy.. I salsa with him as he loves to dance, he has a daughter of 23 and yet my friend tells me "he is becoming too Egyptian" in regards to his daughter.
And on another note I had an email from a friend in Scotland telling me that she and her Albanian husband have parted.. he just got up and left after 10 years.. 3 months after he got his indefinite stay... so it happens everywhere.

[DeadGuy]

Originally Posted by Sam

Hey Deadguy,

You are right.

By genuine, I mean that he did love me and he didn't want me for monetary or visa purposes. But, he didn't take me with the intention of changing me, this came later. When I met him, he drank alcohol, didn't even fast during Ramadan, he sold himself has being very open minded and even until now he doesn't pray - unless his Dad is sick or something. It was after I became pregnant things changed, but it became a religious fear of how he would teach the child, which they got imprinted onto me.

We both didn't know what we were letting ourselves in for. We both tried to change each other. He had accepted me for who I was, but after marriage/pregnant (they kind of happened simultaneously) it was the old story of "I don't mind you showing your legs/arms/body - it's what other people would think of me ALLOWING YOU to show..." you start to change out of respect, one thing becomes another thing...

Yes, he tried to change me and yes he tried to convert me, and hence why we lasted not more than two years. But, yes he was genuine, it was when fatherhood struck him that his "bad behaviour" and reality struck him, as equally as it struck me.

And don't keep apologising, it really takes MUCH MORE than that to offend me, your opinions and advice have been valuable and 99% of the time accurate

Sam

Hi there,

"it was the old story of "I don't mind you showing your legs/arms/body - it's what other people would think of me ALLOWING YOU to show..." you start to change out of respect, one thing becomes another thing..."

Damn Egyptians! They think God/Allah is an easier one to fool than other people!!!!!!!!

I dunno your ex in person, but those who I know and happened to be involved in "that" kind of "Jihad"???? They'd do/pretend to do ANYTHING to complete their "mission", and I think it's clear what I mean by "anything".


Part of what's done to accomplish missions is being not too obvious, looking cool, shaving beards, drinking etc, it helps saving the hassles with the (Egyptian CIA) low IQ guys in here as well


I don't need to know how much does it take to offend you or anyone else, this isn't why I'm saying anything that I say.

But 99%?? I doubt it

Personally? I'm happy you made the right choice, not just for you, but for your child before anything/anyone else.

Good luck

[DeadGuy]

Originally Posted by MaidenScotland

It's the changing bit that bothers me.
I had a maid who fell in love with guy here in Cairo, she is Fillipina and Christian and asked me for help in marrying him which I was happy to do.
It was when she started telling me that she would have to cover up when married, change her religion, not work, that I told her under no circumstances would I help her.. anyway she is in America having a ball.
I also have a friend who has been married for 35 years to a great guy.. I salsa with him as he loves to dance, he has a daughter of 23 and yet my friend tells me "he is becoming too Egyptian" in regards to his daughter.
And on another note I had an email from a friend in Scotland telling me that she and her Albanian husband have parted.. he just got up and left after 10 years.. 3 months after he got his indefinite stay... so it happens everywhere.

Hi there,

It does happen everywhere, but for some reason it happens in here more than anywhere else, may be it's something got to do with the water or anything? lol

As for your friend with the Albanian creature? Think she should haunt him and get her rights from him, if she was gonna let him be in Scotland anyway, I'd make sure he gets deported if it was me

[MaidenScotland]

Going to put my head up over the parapet and probably get shot.

1. There is a huge social structure here,

2. Religion is drummed into people and more so poor people.. after all what have they got if
they don't have hope..

3. When your poor here you are poor, no social security to help.

4. The poor waiter who serves you on holiday could never in a million years afford a two week
package holiday in Egypt never mind overseas, so when he sees you coming here maybe 4
times a year then you are a millionaire, ok you had to save but at least you could..he can't.

5. You come over with all your money and money is power and he has no money therefore he
has no power so the manipulation comes in.. dress codes are suggested, religion is brought
up more and more because he is the man and your ONLY the woman.

6 His friends ask him, who is the boss in your house why is your wife sitting there drinking beer?

7 Poor people here will never be as worldly wise or as educated as your average holidaymaker
Not their fault but that's how it is, they believe what they see on American movies.

8 Read Catherine Cookson and how our poor mothers lived with drunken bullies and then change
it into modern day Egypt.. Take out the drunk and put religion in it's place.

9 A poor man here marrying a western woman has raised his social status money wise, but in
thinking it is easier for him to drag you down to his way of thinking than to pick himself up and
understand that your way of living has enabled him to do the things he now can.

10. Being rich doesn't make your life better it just makes your life easier.



Just my slant on it.

[Beatle]

Originally Posted by AMT123

From reading this forum it is clear that there are an awful lot of Egyptian men keen to use western woman for one purpose or another. My question is, do any of you know of any Egyptian men who have genuine relationships with a western woman and have not got an ulterior motive?!

There are many genuine Egyptian guys out there - in that respect it's no different from any other country. You get the good and the bad. The tourist resorts tend to have more examples of the stereotypical Egyptian male seeking to pick up Western females and a significant number of those relationships don't seem to work out but that doesn't mean everyone should be tarred with the same brush.

I guess the main thing is to take your time: learn about the culture, what his expectations are in terms of religion, what his expectations are about the future, learn about his family and his background.

Mixed race marriages can work as I have many friends who are either in mixed race marriages or whose parents come from different backgrounds. But my view is that knowledge is key - I am Muslim but even I find certain aspects of Egyptian culture or certain religious practices difficult to come to terms with. I have many highly educated professional Egyptian male friends who have expectations of how their wives should behave and I would struggle to meet those expectations if I was married to them!

Relationships with someone from a different culture can be challenging but there are many people who have found it is worth it - enjoy getting to know him and I hope it works out for you.

[DeadGuy]

Originally Posted by MaidenScotland

Going to put my head up over the parapet and probably get shot.

1. There is a huge social structure here,

2. Religion is drummed into people and more so poor people.. after all what have they got if
they don't have hope..

3. When your poor here you are poor, no social security to help.

4. The poor waiter who serves you on holiday could never in a million years afford a two week
package holiday in Egypt never mind overseas, so when he sees you coming here maybe 4
times a year then you are a millionaire, ok you had to save but at least you could..he can't.

5. You come over with all your money and money is power and he has no money therefore he
has no power so the manipulation comes in.. dress codes are suggested, religion is brought
up more and more because he is the man and your ONLY the woman.

6 His friends ask him, who is the boss in your house why is your wife sitting there drinking beer?

7 Poor people here will never be as worldly wise or as educated as your average holidaymaker
Not their fault but that's how it is, they believe what they see on American movies.

8 Read Catherine Cookson and how our poor mothers lived with drunken bullies and then change
it into modern day Egypt.. Take out the drunk and put religion in it's place.

9 A poor man here marrying a western woman has raised his social status money wise, but in
thinking it is easier for him to drag you down to his way of thinking than to pick himself up and
understand that your way of living has enabled him to do the things he now can.

10. Being rich doesn't make your life better it just makes your life easier.



Just my slant on it.

This is the most brief, honest and realistic opinion I ever heard, and I totally agree with each and every point mentioned in it.

But I wanna add something, the word "marriage" is used to define 2 people who are involved in a relationship, a partnership, and here I'd like to add #11:

11: For 90% of the Egyptian males, marriage means OWNERSHIP, not partnership, at all


No one started shooting you yet, but they will come Just hope you get shot down nicely.

[Helen Ellis]

Originally Posted by AMT123

From reading this forum it is clear that there are an awful lot of Egyptian men keen to use western woman for one purpose or another. My question is, do any of you know of any Egyptian men who have genuine relationships with a western woman and have not got an ulterior motive?!

I know and knew many genuine Egyptian men in and out of relationships with western women, mostly professional or military, usually with their own family money, but not all. All I think have had a good education though.
Some of my closest friends here have succesful long term marriages, with and without children.
But others don't, and they have lost money and property to men they trusted because they thought they loved them, some have been and indeed are still being threatened by their husbands. Some are still living in bliss unaware they their beloved is seeing other women when they are supposed to be working.
And yes I know this happens everywhere, but we are talking about Egypt here.
I think maybe we are seen to be only negative purely because we try to impress on women that not all men are as genuine as they seem, this culture IS different, and it is easy to be fooled.

[Tinytraveler]

If you are a Christian considering marrying a Muslim man things you need to think about:

Know the rights you are given in Islam but realize these rights are only good if he is willing to uphold them and live by them. So if he is a alcohol drinking, sex before marriage kind of Muslim don't expect him to uphold your rights because he only knows his religion when it is convenient to him. Typically these guys when they find their religion after a child is born do not have enough knowledge of the religion and end up being a bit extreme in their understanding. They are usually too lazy to find out the truth from an educated scholar and just except what they are told from the streets which is usually cultural and not Islam.
An example of your rights: Your money is your money and he has no rights to it and you don't have to spend one penny of it for the house (rent), food, clothes, utilities and all the needs of children. He has to pay for all of this, but you have to be willing to live with in his means. If you want more then he can afford he can tell you to buy your own Gucci hand bag. In Islam no where in the Quran is the wife required to cook & cleaner. Her job is only to raise good Muslim children. It is our nature to want to take care of things and not live in a mess so most women do it anyway. A Muslim huband can be required to provide a wife with a maid if his income affords it and the wife needs help.

Do you have to ask for his permission to leave the house? Is he going to allow you to have unlimited access to his money? Does he have to spend on the care of his family (mother/father, putting a brother through college)? Would he be willing to put property in your name only so if he dies you are not going to have to pay his relatives their inheritance to be able to stay in your home, if you live in Egypt. Is your mother in law going to come stay with you for extended periods of time?
Will he allow you to work after marriage? Is he going to limit what kind of job you can get?
Would he be interested in additional wives? (You can put in your marriage contract that he gives up his rights to additional wives.)
Where will you live?
If a man wants to marry you without you meeting his family there is something really really wrong. Marriages are not to be hidden but announced very openly. When the family finds out you got married in secret you will never be seen in a good light nor your family.

How many children? Birth control: which are exceptable? If you guys are NOT blessed with kids in the first few years of marriage does that mean divorce? If you have a girl child does he or his family believe in clitoridectomy? Just because he doesn't want it done doesn't mean if you leave you daughter with grandma for the afternoon she will not just have it done to your daughter. This is not a Muslim thing but a thing that is seen as allowable in Islam for the cultures that practice it. Most of the Muslim world does not practice it but in Egypt and other parts of Africa it is practiced.
What is your dowry going to be? You should expect one! It can be as small as memorizing verses of the Quran (like all of the ones about women's rights) and a ring, the other end of he spectrum is a whole apartment, filled with furniture, some gold, no additional wives, airline tickets every year to visit family for you and your future kids, the right to name your kids with out his approval, it is up to you two to agree on.

Realize that if you take an Egyptian back to GB or USA you will be teaching him everything on how to survive in that culture. Many Egyptians think the streets are paved with gold in the west and that money is so easy to come by. What they don't understand is that they will usually be forced to take jobs they will see as beneath them. Unless they are absolutely fluent in English and got a degree from a western accredited University their degree is worthless. I know of way too many foreigners that were Dr's in their country but are managers of Pizza Hut or a Taxi driver in the states after many years.

Marriages of diffrent culture is hard enough but marriages of different cultures and religion is far worse. I don't know of one marriage between a Muslim and Christian that has worked out well. Even when the wife converted eventually. I have seen women convert because they were convinced but then when they found out that their rebel Muslim husbands were falling far short of their requirements they started to pressure them to change for the better according to the religion. In the end the marriages finished in divorce.