Wow, what a great insight. Nice job. Very nice.

Hi,

I will do my best to be precise, although I usually have written the tenth paragraph before I realise that I rant (yet again). Please don't give me any scores on my English grammar and spellings, OK? I have not worked out how to do normal spellcheck on my iPad yet. Don't suggest the text prediction thing though, it drives me potty!

Anyway, I am about your age, Thai, female and very happily married to my English hubby.

I think your GF has more or less got over having done what a 'good' Thai girl should not do before marriage. So, don't worry about having wronged her. She is or has been a very traditional girl but also a medical school student/graduate. She has been raised by her parents who must be even more traditional. However she knows a lot of things even before she has done or tried them through friends, internet, classrooms and her textbooks, things that old-fashioned Thai OAP's certainly see as taboos. There is always a little fight inside most Thai girls' heads, usually due to our traditional upbringing clashing with our more or very Western education and knowledge from internets, Hollywood films and books. See how you Americans have corrupted us! LOL
The more education we get, the more of the world we see, the struggles either get better or worse, depending on how we reconcile the differences. By doing so, you should become quite unique to your Western friends but sometimes arrogant/weird/crazy to your fellow Thais. This sounds a bit like the Joy Luck Club.

Of course virginity means something to Thai girls with values although such girls are as rare as hen teeth, so it seems. Losing it, despite love being a reason, would bring shame to any Thai girl with a strong sense of right and wrong. Have you not noticed one thing in common among a lot of Thai girls? Even in some who might even have a more relaxed attitude about sex, we are forever looking for perfection, ways to improve everything. Good is often not good enough. Only perfection or the best of everything will do. Not many of us claim to be religious or have any vague interest in any religion. IMHO, religions often get through to us in some ways as they have shaped our societies for generations. One of the Buddhist beliefs being emphasised again and again at home, school and on TV, is how we have long been waiting for our utopian Buddhist era expected to soon arrive when everything will be perfect, no more sufferings and no more previous, present and next lives. Of course, beliefs are passed down and can be misinterpreted. Some might never actually existed or might have come from the least expected source. IMHO, if you re-read the belief then perfection is nirvana or nothingness, right? It should be, if living has pained so many Buddhists then nothingness has to be their goal! Instead, the very belief seemed to have got twisted a little bit, what we heard on countless occasions at school was that as a good Buddhist, we must embetter ourselves at all times. Younger generations should achieve greater things than their forefathers, meaning do not bring shame on your family and don't disappoint your parents, etc! I hope you see the connection, I am very terrible at explainng things. This is as good as it gets though.

I don't mean to offend any religions or religious persons, OK? I believe in both Christ and Lord Buddha and strongly believe that it is better for all of us that a lot of us still have some beliefs and repent when we have done something wrong. The world without any beliefs will be full of people with no inhibations. That is a very dangerous world, like a battlefield full of loose cannons!

I think, maybe I am incorrect though, that because you have 'wronged' her, despite you both loving each other, she sees herself as your responsibility. Having lost her virginity to you and continuing to do what she should not have done with you are a representation of her commitment to you/her wish to spend the rest of her life with you,in every sense. In short, according to her, she is yours now. Traditionally, you are responsible for her life, her happiness and (somehow) her family, because so far she has already given you her everything, ie love, virginity, meeting with her parents, parents' blessings, sharing family issues and her dad's 'shame' with you. You cannot have 99% of Thai girls without taking on/tolerating their families. It is a ' Love me, love my dog (s)' situation.

If your GF's dad is very proud, ashamed to accept your loan then, you are a lucky man. Let's hope he can influence his wife! You GF doesn't sound greedy despite the money-borrowing involvement. If she repays you, keep her. If she does not, keep her if you still love her. If you want to be together, you share everything and do not mentally work out who is losing out and who is taking whom for a ride, right? If one day you marry her, then this should happen.

In marriage, both of you gamble everything you have on happiness. You, therefore, are equally at risk. If your GF was farang, might it be less suspicious to you if she wanted to borrow money? Many Thai girls have done nothing to improve our worldwide image. However, once farangs get to know Thai girls on a personal level better, farangs treat us way better than some fellow Thais. Even farang strangers in England or Thailand treat a tanned skin Thai girl with a farang guy with a lot more respect than some Thais!

My husband has lost so much money through lending to an English girl, stolen by his ex GF who was of Cambodian origin and a very expensive divorce from his English ex wife (plus child maintenance) years before we met. If I had gone through all that, I would never talk about money or lend money to anyone again for fear of finding out who someone really was. He knows Thai girls very well. I never really care much to find out how. He even told a friend to break up with a Thai girl who kept asking for money. He has not heard at all about many good / happy-ending stories involving Thai girls. We fell in love pretty quickly. He trusted me extremely quickly, too. Maybe that was why he had lost money. My family and I are similar to your GF's dad, too proud. We did not even do the Thai wedding thing, just eloped but got married legally in Bangrak, the most flexible Registrar Office! ( highly recommended). No dowry and no gold, my parents must be pretty relieved to get rid off me. They are very traditional in most ways. However, we are not for expensive Buddhist ceremonies and think that dowries are a hinder for new couples starting their lives together, false economy, permanent damage to the groom's bank balance which is also the bride's. In our eyes, ceremonies and dowries are Hindu but we have nothing against Hinduism. They just don't suit us and seem to make a lot of rural Thais really poor.
My husband did get off VERY lightly. He does over-indulge me on a daily/weekly basis. I have no complaints and I think this is exactly what my parents truly want. He is also very thoughtful and generous with my family despite their polite no. Money is only there to make going to the banks tolerable, in my view. Maybe both my husband and I came from tiny families, we love to extend it somehow but possibly not by having children. My husband even does not mind living with my mum and my brother, despite him being usually fussy. I am not much better. Anyway being a sensible would-be mediator, I shall put my mum and my bro in one self-contained wing. I don't want to see my bro's mess anyway. Was it Robert Frost who wrote a poem about a good fence making good neighbours! Wise words! One of my poetry heroes!

It is good to be clear from the beginning with your GF like you have been. I think she is wise enough to understand you and her parents but she has to do what they have told her to do. I can tell that you are utterly in love with her. This is what you need to do possibly with your GF's help. If her dad is the proud one, then you need to get him to like you. Don't be put off by the Thai stern faces older people tend to have. They don't dislike you. But, maybe like you, they are very shy, besides if they have bad teeth, they do not smile much. Appearance is everything, in Thailand. That is possibly why Nirvana is not very successfully promoted, Utopian Buddhist era is much more secularly acceptable.

You possibly will have to start dealing with the dowry issue. Bad news first, she is educated, good-looking possibly the most successful in the family, a doctor-to-be and you are a farang, either you are rich or not, you have to pay the part for her family's reputation and social standing. All good points about your GF are usually the very factors that calculate dowries. I think the one million Baht she told you should have been very soothing to your hearing as I think her parents could possibly ask for more. But she is going to be a doctor. If needs be, she needs a private clinic to start with, depending on her field, location and her student loans, she should be able to save up for enough dowry with your help within 2-5 years!

Cont...

Sadly, dowries- money plus gold are status enhancers. Having a farang son-in-law and a daughter as a doctor are, too. When the time is right for you both, , you or your mother need to ask your GF's parents for her hands in marriage, your mother is better suited. The whole process may have to be repeated differently in a ceremony, down to her parents again. You or your mum can ask about the dowry. It is best to get your GF to really find out the exact amount. If by that time, you have more money than they asked, check with them if, status-wise, the amount is going to be acceptable for someone like your GF. If they say yes, go celebrate. If they say not really, then offer to take out your joint savings to increase the money part of dowries in case gold is still stupidly expensive. It would have been safe to top up the gold part but what if the price came down during your honeymoon. But make sure to say that you think she is truly the best and deserve ten or a hundred times more dowries. However, you both are still young and you are not extremely wealthy, you think you should take out the joint savings put aside for her clinic medical equipments ( or anything very important to your GF) in order to top up the money part of the dowry to make it more suitable for your GF. But the topup should go back to her bank account for .... I cannot see how this will be insulting. Every parents want the best for their children, despite how greedy they are. They should be touched that you know how precious she is to them and to you and possibly love you even more.

The desperate act of faking the dowry amount has been mastered by many a family, ok? There are some nationalities that will do most things to save face.

Knowing the parents' background is a very good thing to work out their ambitions, beliefs, etc.

Your GF is so sweet, if I ever bothered to have a daughter, hopefully she would be as sweet.

Anyway, time for me to stop! Good luck.

Heck, with you and stednick, I might understand Thai culture. lol

Thank you for the wonderful reply. I am too sleepy now to elaborate on my situation with my girl, but she has decided that asking me for that loan was ridiculous and has apologized for doing so. Things were normal between us then and are now too. She can can pay it off in 4 months with not much interest. She told her parents of her decision and her father said just do what makes you both happy. This is what she told me. I told her that I am relieved as the loan was confusing for me because of all the mixed messages I get regarding Thai/farang relationships. Time to sleep. I will continue another time. Thanks again everyone for all your input and honest experiences.

Love and all that mushy stuff aside.. one thing that can always break a relationship is money or lack thereof. This can be especially true of Asian cultures. Unless this girl's family is very worldly, you will be expected to be the family social security.

That said, it is difficult enough today for recent grads to get a foothold in own country, much less as an expat. I know, I've got a 28 year old son who has yet to find his footing. It's tougher today than ever for many occupations.

Perhaps you come from a family that can assist wealth wise, and if so, great. But if not, be cautious of what you promise. That may do more harm to the lovely girl than her first sexual encounter.

You sound like decent sort being concerned.... you can't undo the past as someone said, but you can be careful about the future. Do as Stednick suggests and learn about what it would take for you to stay in Thailand. That has to fit into the equation; unless your love wants to come to States.

Good luck...

PS. If you find yourself in the rain again, be sure to wear your rubbers! Don't complicate things more.

__________________
"Remember, no matter where you go, there you are " - Confucius

Uuuuugh. I am stuck in Chombol Buri, at the mercy of my GF's latest position at a local hospital. I arrived in BKK about 3 weeks ago. My GF's commencement ceremonies were 2 weeks ago at University of Technology Suranaree in Korat. She recieved her diploma from the princess with honors. So proud!!! And the after graduation ceremonies at the school by the younger students was incredible--such a quite culture going completely insane. The drums and rapid waiing and jumping and dancing was intense. It went on for hours. I had a chance to reconnect with the whole family, 24 of them, some women so old they could have modeled for a dried jerky commerical.

Her uncle is a teacher and was very soothing for me. He just sat there with his hand on my thigh and talked about the family. I sat with my GF in the middle of everyone and ate sun dried/salted pork and fish. It was actually delicious and the family loved that i kept asking for more--I was starving too. I was also the only one so sweaty leaving salt staing on the back of my shirt. Embarrassing!!! The mother and father did not talk to me. I was very concerned about this, but my GF said if they did not like me they would have just not let me join them. I later was invited to their humble home and ate with the family again. This time the father and I smoked cigarettes together and played with the pets and kids. I felt better after that.

Back to where I find myself now, OH GAWD. I am trying to come to terms with my last week here. I am so bored. And so different. My culture shock came and went quick this time-I was here for three months last time. I was only aggrivated by the stares for a couple days. i am now relaxed and at peace with my position, despite having NOTHING to do. This has giving some time to worry about my future. I guess I am a worrier--product of my uptight culture. Will I like it here? Is my girl the right one? Can we be happy? Can I be happy, and if not what will i do then? What about her? On and on and on.... Admittingly, I am starting to relax about it. I am an avid cyclist and I do not have my bike with me this time. I go crazy with out it. And she is busy, and I am in a really small town. I should expect to feel boredom, just don't let it get carried away---------wow rabbling.

I recieved my B.S. degree. Part of my plan in order to move here. I really hope I can make a good teacher. I think I can. I am trying not to build too many expectations before I even get my feet wet. Oh here is a question for anyone. Should I live in Surin where my girl will be, or head to a mountainous area because cycling is so important for my state of being? Any thoughts?